Thursday, September 15, 2005

To Restore the Pagoda tree

A Bit of information about Ancient India for I thought its my duty to tell the world what Real India is.

Many people know that India was the richest country in the world, in terms of culture as well as economy before the Mid-Easterners and Europeans ravaged through India. People searched for ways to reach India only for the treasure in the form of Gold it had in abundance. They were not only very much successfull in that, whereas they also acted as agents in suppressing the glorious Indian culture.

Today even in India we are having tough time accepting what this Indian culture is !! Thanks to Adengappa, fellow blogger for bringing into light this Article here. Its got loads of information on how these traitors from the west succeeded in satisfying their selfish greed at the cost of civilization.

It has been estimated that the total amount of treasure that the British looted from India had already reached £1,000,000,000 (£1Billion) by 1901. Taking into consideration interest rates and inflation this would be worth close to $1,000,000,000,000 ($1Trillion) in real-terms today.

The invaders discovered that as long as Indians holded on to their tradition it would be difficult to exploit the wealth from this country. A small peek into the education system as analysed by the britishers in ancient India is breathtaking. During a survey taken in 1822, Bengal presidency had 1 lakh schools, there was not a single village in Madras without a school and the education system was based on the highly intelligent sanskrit language handled by qualified brahmins. In present day because of the western influence, the brahmins are oblivious of their system of living.

In one of his letters to his Dad, Lord Macaulay writes

"Our English schools are flourishing wonderfully; we find it difficult to provide instruction to all. The effect of this education on Hindus is prodigious. No Hindu who has received an English education ever remains sincerely attached to his religion. It is my firm belief that if our plans of education are followed up, there will not be a single idolater among the respected classes 30 years hence. And this will be effected without our efforts to proselytize; I heartily rejoice in the prospect'

The end result is that the world understands that the Brits made the Indians civilized. What kind of information do we have written in the history texts. Now there are great people who have testimonials for the Indian culture. Indian culture is a serious study in the west. People are exploring the fields of Yoga, Indian scriptures, occult practices and Philosophy.

Its the duty of each and every sincere Indian to live upto the ideals and restore the Pagoda tree.

67 comments:

sathyus said...

its an interesting line of thought..dont know if u can just go ahead and blame the BRits for our lack of willpower in holding onto what we think is important -in this case our culture..a simple example.. a few weeks back i went to school wearing my salwar and an indian girl asked me" o when did u come from india a week back??" i was flabbergasted.. tis considered that you are conservative if you follow your traditions.. so its not them..its us..is my contention...

vasanthi said...

Hey that was a real eye opener

Ram.C said...

Good link, SK.

i agree that most of our wealth had been looted by outsiders. however, after consolidation we could have done better with integrity. Somewhere it went wrong and we are in the current status. hope we recoup all the losses in the coming decades.

Tamizhan said...

Mamu, what has the pagoda tree got to do with what you are talking abt?

PS i havent visited the links in your post...

Adaengappa !! said...

Good one KS !!

Saravana Kumar said...

@Sathyus my point is the invaders have made us think this way ... Indian way of thinking was different

@Hi Vasanthi .. thanks for dropping my

@Ram ... I think its neither our fault nor is it on the part of brits ... I mean its the way of providence

@Tamizhan ... I was referring India to pagoda tree ... I mean in the article pointed by the link, there's a reference to India as a pagoda tree

@Adengappa .. this one's inspired by ur post indeed

priya said...

uve been blogrolled :)

..p..

Jagan said...

machi ..u set me thinking :-) . nice post da mama

Vinesh said...

Thought-provoking post! Usually I don't read long posts, but I couldn't stop reading this!

The whole British idea was a planned conspiracy then! wow!

ada-paavi!!!! said...

its important that each one of us knows our roots and manages to seemlessly blend it nto our lives, ive just started my attempt at doing so!

krishna said...

Well said..

Am yet 2 check out the link.

krishna said...

just done reading the artice..was really thought provokign and strikingly true ..:

can we bloggers do something about upbringing ? may be a bunch of people can join together and form a blog for writing stuff on the glorious past and the compare it with the present?

senthil said...

that was intresting...

Arjuna_Speaks said...

Very good post Saravana - read this long time ago and commenting now :)

TJ said...

Only difference, the Brits looted then and our own people loot now!.

Only reason for the country to be alive today is because of the culture preserved not by any vactian, but in an institution by name 'Family'. To preserve the identity as a nation, it is imperative to preserve the family.

Saravana Kumar said...

Hi ppl, If you read this article and you are moved ... it shows your patriotism. We'll create a new society built on ideals.

@Krishna ... I've a blog that I write, which is not shown in my profile. Its about Bhagavatam ... probably you'll like the stuff very much, check it out here This Blog

Metlin said...

What India once was does not really matter, today it is a third world developing nation with serious problems in population, health, infrastructure, poverty and a million other areas. Today, despite everything, it's got extremely corrupt politicians and is full of people who do not have the backbone to stand up to face problems.

Every part of the world has had invaders ravaging it - even the might Romans were not infallible, so this point is completely moot. To say that someone looted you and hence you have problems is absolute nonsense, Japan was ravaged after WW2 and was in shambles, most of the wealth of Japan was all over south and south east asia except Japan, and yet they rebuilt their country in less time than we did.

Like they say, "Gold is the corpse of value" - the true value and worth of a nation lie in its people, and India has a nation has people who stopped caring a long time ago.

Until the Brits came, we were a bunch of loosely connected people with no single common thread (except perhaps similarities in culture) with no fundamental infrastructure. We were given a universal infrastructure and we were united, and given the English language - without any of those, India might as well been down in the dumps as an underdeveloped nation rather than a even a developing nation. I'd pretty much call that being made to be civilized.

Indians have always lived in the past, talking about our wondrous culture and our history while ignoring the problems of the present that are so pathetic. We use our past to hide from our present - where we are nothing more than a third world, developing nation falling at its seams with population, ethnic clashes, corruption, poor infrastructure, disease and a million other things that the west has mostly overcome eons ago. We do not have the guts to fight our warring neighbours, the guts to stand up to issues and the care to do something about things, and always look for scapegoats and symbolisms to lay our blames on.

Krishna, Anand said...

thanks for the link bro...sure wud frequent there ..:)

Srimad Bhagavatham is undeniably one of our greatest treasures

G3 said...

nice post. makes one think.

Saravana Kumar said...

@metlin I think you don't know what history of India is. you have not understood the topic either. Its all about culture dude, and nothing to relate to developing or developed nations. Probably read the post properly before you comment.

@gayathri thanx for dropping by.

Kasthuri Srinivasan said...

Hi Saravana,
While I definitly think western system was started with a ulterior defeating motive, it depends on the way how we take it from here. I don't think we were the greatest civilization. We had the spiritual hights. But equally, we were also responsible for our downfall. Wealth might have been stolen from us. But, as long as we have our spiritual wealth, no body can make us extinct. It all depends on how dharma is upheld. Good post.

Sriram C S said...

It is very true that the roots of this problem lies with the education system. After all, if an entire society has shifted its thought process from one plane to another, it is only through education that this happens. And again, the reverse of this process can happen only through education. Leave me your gmail id Saravan, mine is agnibarathi@gmail.com.

Demo said...

> Many people know that India was the richest country in the world

Repeating truisms doesn't make it any truer. There was no 'India', there was a mosaic of kingdoms that grew and shrunk. And even in terms of regional GDP I'm sure China would beat India even then. But we get your point, yes, India was prosperous, the land was fertile, life was good.

> They were not only very much successfull in that, whereas they also acted as agents in suppressing the glorious Indian culture.

I wonder how the Harappans felt, the twin onslaught of the Aryans and the the increasing aridity of their homelands *killed* their culture. Your culture, on the other hand, has survived enough for you to bitch about it.

> Today even in India we are having tough time accepting what this Indian culture is

That is because 'Indian' culture is a relatively modern thing. In Europe in the 15th century it was not common for people to call themselves Florentian or Cumbrian or Alsacian. It took almost 400 years for that to go. Today, fueled by increasing communication-powered globalization, more and more people call themselves European and similarly we see a integrative trend in India too. But to return to India -- take the trouble to find out who are worshipped during Diwali across India, and how Diwali is celebrated (beyond the common denominator of firecrackers). Trouble yourself to find out about marriage rituals and religious festivals -- you'll see a number of 'local' cultures that even now are holding strong.

Today, all truly pan-Indian culture has going for it is Bollywood and Cricket. Everything else varies from region to region.

> in terms of culture as well as economy before the Mid-Easterners and Europeans ravaged through India. ... Taking into consideration interest rates and inflation this would be worth close to $1,000,000,000,000 ($1Trillion) in real-terms today.

So go demand justice in the International Court of Justice. Your cause is just, why do you fear? (and of course, we could all enjoy the tamasha). Or better yet, declare war on the UK and Central Asia/Iran (after all Babur and Co came from there), see how well you do.

> The end result is that the world understands that the Brits made the Indians civilized.

I don't know why you choose to live under an inferiority complex but India was civilized long ago and many Europeans (notably German Vedic experts) have been instrumental in circulating this fact to the West.

But what YOU forget is that Indian civilization had a fall too. A sophisticated Vedic civilization fell victim to the worst excesses of casteism, superstition (can any reader of the Rig Veda claim the cow to be 'holy' with a straight face?) and caste-fueled nepotism. This country stultified *way* before the Muslims came here, so don't blame them and the British for it.

If you want India to be great, go back to the Vedic basics. Go back to the basics, to the spirit of confident inquiry and innovation that gave the world grammar and math. But for heaven's sake stop living under an inferiority complex about 'how the world robbed us'. Lots of people have been robbed -- China and Japan notably so. They are kicking ass while guys like you are whining.

Demo said...

> you are conservative if you follow your traditions

Sathyus: about following your culture by wearing a salwar kameez:

You are aware that the salwar-kameez is of Turkish/Iranian origin and introduced to India by the Mughals? Originally Hindu women wore a single robe (saree).

So (assuming from your nick that you're not Muslim) whose culture are you being true to by wearing the salwar? Or are you merely confusing 'conventional' (in the sense of 'done for a long time') for 'traditional'?

That said, of course, you have the right to dress as you please. A number of friends have told me salwars are very comfortable, and so on that ground alone it's fine to wear one, but let's not pretend it's part and parcel of our 'culture' in its ancient-Indian sense that this blog is talking about.

Metlin said...

I very well know what the history of India is. My point is just that whatever may have been the history of India, it is in no way pertinent to its present. You use terms such as "traitors from the west" and rant about the amount of gold we had - I say that it does not matter how much gold we had or how badly we were ravaged, it in no way would have any bearing on progress; we are not even making good use of the amount of resources we have today. Besides, it's not like you were the only nation in the whole history of civilization that were pillaged and plundered.

And finally, to a great extent, the west *did* bring civilization as we know it to us, if we were that wonderful, ours would have survived. Why didn't we go "civilize" the rest of the world, rather than the west doing it to us? And if our culture were that wonderful, it would have withstood the onslaught.

You speak of culture like it's a single thing that should never change - culture will change based on what is more relevant to the times. Indian culture may have worked a couple of hundred years ago, today it is without identity and holds true to dogmas that still eat at "civlization", as you put it. And more importantly, there is no "Indian culture", it is a mere amalgamation of a million other cultures. Today, that amalgamation has also been westernized, big deal. In fact, the highlight of Indian culture today is nothing more than ridiculous movies laden with sex innuendos and a game of cricket (which once again is British in origin).

But of course, that would not stop you from taking on the hypocritical attitude - I mean, Indians do not kiss, right? Especially when our temples themselves have enough and more nudes and eroticas.

We were a great culture once, a culture that valued science and math with several other nice things. Today it values movies and cricket, and prides itself on having an blue-collar IT industry. Either you let go of the western culture completely (wear Dhotis and do nothing Western - hey, the West invented the Internet, what're you doing here?) or stop being hypocritical and accept the change.

Saravana Kumar said...

Metlin I very well accept with all that you say ... I'm not inclined towards the vedic way of living either, nor do I bother about what we have lost, nor do I live in the past brooding over lost things. Thats definitely not my character ...

My idea on Indian culture is that, Its designed over thousands of years, thinking of ways of how to make our lives happy. Money is not at all big ... damn trillions of dollars wont stand before a happy society ... I mean money alone will not make you happy either.

Its also no use thinking how we should live the life leaving all today's business, that is also not a point, but this culture what I'm speaking about is a mindset, doesn't depend upon the age. believe me its practical over all the ages, only point is people are not ready to accept it or atleast have an interest going through it. Its everywhere in the form of Bhagavat Gita, but who bothers to read through it. Have you taken initiative in reading it atleast through the first chapter.

Metlin I strongly believe that you are confusing indian culture with superstition, or Am I confusing Indian philosophy with Indian culture.

We could follow this way of living, even with the high-tech gadgets around.

Like people say that life can't be dreamed to be followed by a huge population, It simply is impractical today. It can't happen in a day. A revolution can't do it.

but if you think you personally want to try it ... its really practical.

Nice arguments Metlin

@nazi - I'm not talking abt the present brits, today we have a common culture around the world, which is much better than the ones the brits had 300 years ago ... I'm speaking with that in mind. there is nothing to feel inferior ... in fact I'm feeling superior in nature and look down at those ppl who tried spoiling us. Its god who protects and destroys too, I'm not bothered about where a good culture florishes. It might be any place man ... I'm not selfish to India.

Finally its the happiness in the society I want, not infatuation and sorrow.

Saravana Kumar said...

btw metlin ... the link you linked is totally crazy ...

krishna said...

metlin,

Please try to get out of the ignorant mode....and please be aware that there are people like Einstein who have greatly respected our ancient knowledge .

let me bring to ur attention that Einstein has once commented after reading the bhagawath gita that "everything else in this world seems superfluous"..

Also,There are people like the beatle star george harrison that greatly appreciated and changed their lives accordingly..

Ravi said...

Great post Saravanan. Thanks!

Metlin, I cannot approve your views since you seem to favour imperialsm. What is civilization? That's a big question in itself. I think the best part of a civilization is to carry forwards its own and at the same time appreciate other civilizations as well. So why would India try to impose its culture onto the rest of the world?

What the British did was curb our civilization thereby suppressing and in the process destroying many many valuable source of knowledge.

Just because India is not the only country to be plundered, you cannot justify the acts of Imperialism.

Demo said...

> What the British did was curb our civilization thereby suppressing and in the process destroying many many valuable source of knowledge.

You know, I do believe you like to use fancy-sounding words without trying to figure out what they stand for. What does 'curb Indian civilization' even mean? How does a civilization get curbed, anyway? Did they demoralize us? On the contrary, the yoke of British rule only formented more nationalism and a sense of unity in the country, and a renewed sense of pride. A lot of things the British did try to stop were sensible, like Sati and child marriage, and Hindu religious reformers took the opportunity to reform Hindu society itself. These are not the signs of a 'curbed' civilization, they are the signs of a civilizational cross-pollination, the only way civilization and culture have ever spread.

I say again, if you want to look for villains who demoralized Indian civilization, look at Indians in the 1-10th century AD. That was the time when caste and supersition entrenched themselves in India, destroying not only progress but the possibility of progress, thanks to the hidebound, nepotistic society it created; thus leaving India to be a sitting duck against every incoming invader.

Saravana Kumar said...

@Krish .. people who understand indian philosophy will never remain ignorant, intelligent people will not ignore this philosophy either.

@Ravi .. I know this before that people will not accept what we truly are, I've already stated that the world is misinformed in my post.

@nazi .. Your words only reflect how misinformed you are, fyi the 11th - 17th centuries were the glorious period for hinduism in south india. you talk about people in the 1-10 century AD, do you have any written document in history regarding that. you just assume things and write about something you don't even have idea of what it is. have you read bhagavat gita, which even the greatest einstein has appreciated, do you know what our puranas are, do you know the philosophical systems evolved in India namely Advaita, Dwaita, Bhakti, Tantra. When you write something, please write it based on facts not on your assumptions. understand you are also the one demoralising the indian culture. understand what you are ... if you don't know, please don't speak degrading words.

Arjuna_Speaks said...

Sarvana - I completely agree with Nazi and Metlin!! They are right ! I am on their sides! ;)

Dont scare them verbally ok ?? :))

Arjuna_Speaks said...

what the heck ur talking saravana! How ignorant u are? How can u say that metlin and nazi dont know what they are talking about - infact u dont know what ur talking about!

If u dont like to live in a civilized - then do u mean to say u r brushing u r teeth with a stick - huh? What do u mean by civilization of thoughts? U mean to say that it was wrong for the Sati system to be abolished? That's what u r trying to claim! Ridiculous! Atrocious! Millions of Blisterring Barnacles!

Even the underwear we are wearing is from the British! I guess no one here is wearing a khadi underwear or a Komanam? So when the daily needs are from the civilized society - how do u expect our thoughts to be old?

Arjuna_Speaks said...

Krishna - the also means there are millions of Indians who acknowledged the American culture and changed - does that mean their culture is better? huh?

Arjuna_Speaks said...

Krishna - I mean this also means!

Arjuna_Speaks said...

To add further :

"Even the underwear we are wearing is from the British! I guess no one here is wearing a khadi underwear or a Komanam"

Some may not wear at all! What culture is that? Stone age civilization - do u prefer ppl not to wear any underwears?

Arjuna_Speaks said...

what is this - I have raised issues - and no one has the guts to challenge my views!

Shame on u Saravana! Got scared of me - huh??

Arjuna_Speaks said...

I guess I have caught the main point (underwear) ;)

Saravana Kumar said...

@Arjuna - Brushing our teeth might be unknown in the west, but it is there in our culture for thousands of years. I'm not sure of the word, it assume its Aachamanam.

Also the britishers just laughed at Sati and Child marriage, Its the hindu reformers who have clarified and tried reforming the society. So the Question of Britishers taking care to civilize us is disqualified. The hindu reformers were looked down by the invaders, ya the word invaders again.

Oh and Arjuna, we were not roaming nude, before the britishers came. It was a way of living man with dhotis and kovanam.

Saravana Kumar said...

ohh Arjuna, you've raised so many challenging questions, I'm shivering with fear :P.

I don't think people will say Ramana Maharishi to be old fashioned because he wore kovanam, in fact that kind of Mindset is all I speak about man ... Arjuna guess you would accept.

I guess I have caught the main point (Kovanam) ;)

Arjuna_Speaks said...

Arjuna Uvacha:

Ignorant Saravana - What about the roads u r walking on? What about the trains u r using to travel? What about the bread ur eating? Who invented them huh?

Arjuna_Speaks said...

Arjuna Uvacha:

Saravana u r blinded with ignorance! Ramana didnt go around shouting about British rule!

Now my question is what do u mean by mindset! What do u mean by civilized mindset!

Saravana Kumar said...

Arjuna - haven't you read of Rama, who build a road from India to Srilanka. Did the britishers teach Rama how to build the road.

Train is one more means of transport man.

True Indians didn't understand what to eat before the brits came here. Only after the brits showed the Indians bread, we started Eating.

Saravana Kumar said...

Ohh Cmon better Accept you are an Ignorant folk Arjuna ... The brits have sure infatuated you

Arjuna_Speaks said...

Saravana - how intelligent u are! U r so brainy! Go learn basics first! Rama didnt build road - he built a bridge! I am talking about a road!! Get that into ur dumb head for heaven's sake!

Saravana Kumar said...

Ohh dumb Arjuna, do you think people fly on the bridges.

Arjuna_Speaks said...

What the heck! How dare u use terms such as infatuated! Do u know the meaning of it? If u dont know the answer to my questions - quit blogging and rest ur face onto a pillow and sleep! Y the heck do u waste my time and meltin, nazi's time? huh?

Saravana Kumar said...

thanx for the compliment ... you are the first guy to say I'm brainy :)

Arjuna_Speaks said...

Hello Mr Saravana - this shows that u havent read anything properly - ur half baked guy !!

Didnt u know that hanuman flied to Lanka?Shows how ignorant u are - Shame on u!

Saravana Kumar said...

Oh ya Arjuna ... For teaching you the meaning of Infatuation to you infatuated fools, I will continue blogging. Yu dare read my blog .. gods sake become wise

Arjuna_Speaks said...

yeah y not - I am the only fool around to read ur stupid blogs :(

Arjuna_Speaks said...

Yes my master - ur enlightening me with ur so called blogs! And these poor readers got to read urs and more than that comment on them!! Poor things!

Saravana Kumar said...

anyways Hanuman didn't fly by the bridge ... He Jumped across the ocean. Ref: sundara kandam of Ramayana.

Arjuna I think its high time you go sit inside a oven and bake yourself completely.

Arjuna_Speaks said...

Going by the things - u wuld start claiming that Hanuman was a long jumper and got the first gold medal for jumping across the ocean to Lanka!

IT wuld be great if u can suggest me a good oven so that I can bake myself properly unlike u!

Saravana Kumar said...

Good that Hanuman didn't participate in all those silly things, he used all his powers for the sake of Rama, The supreme.

I suggest my Blog to you man. Its the oven to bake you ;>

Arjuna_Speaks said...

Ok no use of talking to half baked guys who dont even know about Sundara Kandam ..

It was directed by K.Bhagyaraj FYI!! Go see it before leaving comments!

I will never step my foot in ur blog!No more comments good bye!

Arjuna_Speaks said...

dude that was a good post - I completely agree with u :))

Saravana Kumar said...

:)

Metlin said...

Saravana Kumar: There is a fine difference between the philosophy of not caring, and practicality. In fact, you can become an ascetic and go to Dharmashala, nobody will stop you. You can stop caring for money and survive there if you are willing to make a few sacrifices.

Sure, you can not care a thing about material things and yet continue to do what you want, surrounded by gadgets - who or what is stopping you or any of the Indians today? That has nothing to do with the Brits (or the West). But you ought to realize that there is a fine line between greed and need, and we once drew the line - we lost it eons ago, even before the Brits ever even set foot.

You cannot not care and yet maintain a practical lifestyle - like you said - because at some point of time or the other, you will have to make certain choices that will conflict.

My point is, why do you blame the West for this?

Krishna: Whoa, dude - care to substantiate why I'm "ignorant" in the eyes of your holiness? There are aspects of some culture or the other that several people appreciate - that is a personal opinion, and them being great has no bearing on how I would perceive it.

Yeah, I'm quite well aware of how oh-the-west thinks the Bhagavad Gita and several aspects of Hinduism are fantastic - but so do several Indians. What has this got to do with how the Brits are responsible for Indians not following it? Or how our culture "was destroyed" by them?

Ravi: Imperialism? Good lord, where on Earth did that come from? No, I advocated the survival of the fittest - and if you would notice, my good sir, so does Mother Nature.

Civilizations that are closed tend to wither away and die, those that spread mutate and evolve to survive. I'd strongly suggest that you read up a little more on the Roman civilization - lest you accuse me next of being a Nazi or worse.

Ravi said...

grammar nazi,
so are you saying people in the west are devoid of all superstitious beliefs? Agreed there were superstitious beliefs and practices but what is being contemplated here is how our own native treasures were deliberately suppressed or destroyed by British.

metlin,
If choose to adopt a methodology from a different culture in lieu of my own then its the success of the civilization but if somebody is going to impose that civilization on me by deprieving me of my own, then its imperialism. Just read about what invaders (from Europe) did to native Americans (or the red Indians). Their tribes were discarded, they were forced to study in Christian missionary schools, forbidden to speak their native language or follow their native religion. What is this supposed to be? Now hasn't this lead to loss of a complete culture?

Arjuna,
Nobody is talking about the technological advancements but about age-old, traditional practices and knowledge which were deliberately suppressed.

Metlin said...

You're mistaking the prevailing of a stronger culture to imperialism. Agreed, that is sometimes a part of imperialism, but that is not the goal (i.e. White Man's Burden was just an excuse, gold, diamonds and trade was the real reason).

My point is this - if the other culture was not strong enough to spread and evolve, then what's wrong in it dying?

Saravana Kumar said...

@metlin - you say "In fact, you can become an ascetic and go to Dharmashala, nobody will stop you. You can stop caring for money and survive there if you are willing to make a few sacrifices."

Indian culture is all about living the way of ascetic having all the luxuries around. That is the way people lived happily for thousands of years. Read bhagavat gita and srimad bhagavatam for accounts of this philosophy. I didn't blame anyone, even if there was a small blame that is to show a point that we need to refine our present culture. hope you understand my point here.

Regarding this stronger culture, I would put my thoughts this way. Our human mind is always attracted towards the carnal things of life. We need determination at each and every point of time to maintain culture. what yu say.

@Ravi - You got great words dude.

Metlin said...

My point is that it was possible to live happily in a primitive era being that way, it would not be practical in this day and age.

No, being carnal has nothing to do with it. You have a few things fundamentally wrong - I wasn't even talking about material needs. I was talking about opportunity - the opportunity to work on things that you enjoy, the ability to do what you want to, the freedom to choose the path that catches your fancy. These are things that the Indian culture puts great constraints on, and these are aspects of the western culture that attracts folks.

If I want to be an archaeologist in India, I've almost little to no career option. Artist? Sculptor? What about marriage? Marrying someone I like? What about doing what I want to in life or at the moment? I mean, I can't even kiss someone I love on the streets? Do you know that I could be arrested for living with my girlfriend?

At every step, our culture has preset prejudices and unwritten rules on what is right and what is wrong. We've spent so much time being tied down to doing what we think and what is wrong that we've forgotten to stop for a moment and see why something is wrong. More often than not, the reason has been long forgotten and has been lost in the dreary practice of tradition and dogma.

No, we may have had a wonderful culture that worked a few hundred years ago, but today it should either blend in with other cultures and evolve or die out - beware, though. If it does not evolve and if it does not die, it will end up like Islam - a few radical idiots who follow age-old laws without a clue about how or why those laws were written. Worse yet, these laws will be interpreted in the worst possible way.

And you're seeing the same thing already happen, RSS and VHP take great pleasure in doing crass things to men and women on Valentine's Day in several cities.

No, the Western culture may not be the best of cultures, but it is like the English language - it is simple, practical and easy, and knows when to borrow a good thing or two if it sees one. On the other hand, the Indian culture is reminiscent of a dead language called Sanskrit. There is a reason the language died. And if we're not careful, the culture may not be far behind.

Saravana Kumar said...

Metlin understand that Indian philosophy is the one which gives you the utmost freedom, I dont understand where we have the constraints. if you visualize it then they might be wrong perceptions.

You want to a culture where people can kiss on the streets and have sex in public is it ? ... go ahead and live that life ... no one is stopping you ... does anyone stop the dogs fucking on the roads.

Obviously we have something right and wrong, It is upto you to realize it. The philosophy and culture is only a guide. without a guide you would ruin yourself.

Seems like you know how a culture will die because of misinterpretation (as in the case of islam) so why do you want that to happen with the indian philosophy.

btw did I ever support this BJP, RSS and those pseudo hindu proclaimers.

indian philosophy is complicated like the sanskrit language. It is complete, scientific. not like the stupid English language and western culture which is incomplete, makes different sense at various places.

Metlin said...

Funny, how you say Indian philosophy gives utmost freedom and in the very next line are up in arms just about two people kissing.

Btw, you crack me up. I said kissing, which is an act of affection, and you immediately equated an act of affection with sex. I mean, an eighty year old couple could kiss, that does not necessarily mean they're going to strip naked on the streets and start having sex.

The very fact that you perceive an act of affection and love to be sex shows your small mindedness - and the fact that you equate those shows how much you are unknowningly influenced by the puritan Muslims and the Victorians. And you talk about ancient Indian culture?

No, right and wrong is a cultural perception - and we were once an extremely open society, one which was known for its freedom of thought. Today, thanks to people like you who equate two people kissing with dogs having sex on the streets (and using crass language like fuck along the way), it's degenerated into a closed society. We once wrote Kamasutra and had such freedom of life, but today we're so closed and so conservative that it's disgusting.

I do not want anything to happen to the Indian philosophy, quite honestly, it's not my problem. I was offering an objective opinion, and your comments merely validated those.

Indian philosophy is definitely complicated, it is so complicated that people do whatever the hell they want and call it "Indian Culture" - a blanket excuse for doing whatever the hell they damn please. Right from ridiculous dress codes to stuck up practices.

And you're forgetting something - nobody wants a complete, scientific language. The idea of a language is to communicate, it's simplicity and elegance that matters. There is a reason why Latin and Esperanto are also dead languages.

The western culture isn't as complex, but it's simple and straightforward. Sure, they don't have three million complex and ridiculous rules, but they have a handful that they adhere to. We have trouble respecting one another in civil conversation and on the streets, and we talk of culture. Bah.

krishna said...

metlin,

u said,

"But of course, that would not stop you from taking on the hypocritical attitude - I mean, Indians do not kiss, right? Especially when our temples themselves have enough and more nudes and eroticas"

I say:

watever be the concept, the extent to which u can understand depends on the way u view it ( take the analogy of sir Isaac newton who discovered gravitaional force here) . The nudes and eroticas when viewed with a plane of mind that seeks material pleasure (ignorant) can never understand the actual significance. If u are after lust, then for certain u would consider those paintings as erotica. The couple (in the yahoo article) when they were kissing out of lust ( an expression of earthly love) , which cannot be equated to divine love for god and that's y the priest got furious. The temple carvings were not carved to represent this material love but to symbolify how one should love god so that house-holders(people who indulge in the act of love) can easily understand.

You said

"There are aspects of some culture or the other that several people appreciate - that is a personal opinion, and them being great has no bearing on how I would perceive it."

I say:

U were perceiving things in an ignorant way as mentioned above, thats y u were not able to identify the subtle differences and hence i had to point it .

U Said :

"Yeah, I'm quite well aware of how oh-the-west thinks the Bhagavad Gita and several aspects of Hinduism are fantastic - but so do several Indians. What has this got to do with how the Brits are responsible for Indians not following it? Or how our culture "was destroyed" by them?"

Those things are actually in response to your perception of ancient india,

"Until the Brits came, we were a bunch of loosely connected people with no single common thread (except perhaps similarities in culture) with no fundamental infrastructure. We were given a universal infrastructure and we were united, and given the English language - without any of those, India might as well been down in the dumps as an underdeveloped nation rather than a even a developing nation. I'd pretty much call that being made to be civilized."

people who revered the bhagawat gita et al cannot be considered as "

"loosely connected people with no single common thread (except perhaps similarities in culture) with no fundamental infrastructure."

Indians were all united under bhakthi....

i can keep voicing out my opinions but unless until u have the un-biased mind to view it from the proper angle , u won't be able to make any sense out of it. so , i am restraining myselves at this point..

Saravana Kumar said...

@Metlin - did anyone stop people kissing the kids out of affection. Understand the kiss motivated by affection and the other motivated by lust. The later when displayed in public only becomes an act of sex. These things will only degrade the society, people who can't control their animal desires go about doing these kind of acts. It only reflects how poor a society is. I can't believe how much Kamasutra is misunderstood in the western world. Kamasutra is not a book on enjoying the carnal desires, whereas its a religion in itself, which has ethics built into it. Today the sex hungry world is using it to satisfy their animal instincts. What use is their explaining all these to infatuated people, these things need subtle understanding of Dharma. And anyone who doesn't understand dharma and acts controversial to it will only meet with sorrow.

Yes I do like the muslim ideas. I'm an follower of ALLAH, the great ....

Yes you can do anything as long as you understand what is culture, it should become a part of life. Once you know it everything that you do will be based on ethics, not stupid egoistical ramblings of mind.

Definitely you need a scientific way of defining things, I mean a language which is completely formed, which is not contradicting. Complexity is only a relative term. That case all the languages are complex.

Oh like Krish says ... look at things from an unbiased mindset. For me couples kissing in public definitely translates to SEX.